Herb Dean is regarded as the world’s hardest working MMA referee, controlling more fights than any other referee on the planet. And along with Big John McCarthy, Herb is probably the most recognized and respected third man in the sport. Having worked the Octagon since UFC 47: It’s On, Herb has shown that his refereeing makes for as safe a match as you can get.

Knucklepit.com caught up with Herb while he was at the Apache Gaming Palace in Lemore, California, to referee at the Palace Fighting Championships. And although Dean is primarily known as a referee, he has an extensive background in a number of martial arts styles.

“I boxed at the neighborhood gym before doing karate and moving on to kickboxing with coach Frank Trail. And Zane Frazier, who later went on to be one of the original UFC fighters, was a point fighter at the same gym.

“The Gracies had also been around our area, doing challenge matches in LA, and my coach told me if they got you on the ground, you were in trouble if you didn’t know how to fight down there. He kinda got my interest, and another fighter from the gym got involved in cross training, so we all eventually became interested in MMA.

“I’ve been involved in martial arts since I was about 10. I started training with a

kickboxing coach when I was 18 - that was in ’88, and I began working out in jiu jitsu and judo with the American Jiu Jitsu guys until about ’93.”

Herb says he doesn’t believe there is that much difference between one nationality’s jiu jitsu and another’s, but that every individual has his own interpretation and personal adaptation of the discipline. “Everyone has a different style – even in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu everyone has a different game.

“My game is more of a top game: I’m not much of a bottom kind of guy. My bottom game is mainly about getting back on top of my opponent; I know what to do on the bottom, but my primary objective is to get back on top. And if I catch you on the way, that’s secondary. I want to catch you from the top – not from the bottom.”

Herb Dean at Mir vs. Sylvia

Herb, do you believe your extensive background in martial arts has helped you a lot as a referee?

“Definitely. I think you need to know what you are looking for. And something I’d like to let you know is that I did train with the American Jiu Jitsu guys a lot, but I’ve trained with many people. And the person I picked up my strongest base from was Larry Landless, who was a referee with the UFC before I was. So I just want to make that really clear: I trained with the American Jiu Jitsu guys, but the person I got my strongest grappling base from was Larry.”

Do you have any idea how many fights you’ve refereed?

“I tried to count it up; I’m sure it’s over 2,000. I referee every weekend, and this week I’m going to referee three fights.” (For Herb, this is not an exceptional week. Having established himself as one of the game’s most skilled and fair referees, the demand for his services is overwhelming.)

You are well known for your integrity as a referee. Do you feel that because you have competed in MMA, it makes you a very fair referee?

“I think so. The fact that I’ve trained and have an extensive background… And I kinda know what to look for. You can never know everything and you’ve got to keep an open mind. At the same time, you do have to know something, and the experience helps me to interpret positions, what set-ups are coming, and to know whether to give a guy a chance to keep working on the ground if it looks like something could come of it. If not, I have to stand it back up and let the fight progress, whether the crowd wants it stood up or not. I have to be fair to the fighters.

“So I think my MMA experience helps me out a lot, and it does help me be fair. Of course, there’s always something out there that you don’t know, and that’s why it’s good to train and compete, because guys are coming up with new stuff all the time, and you want to stay abreast of it.”

What was it like being at UFC 68 when you had over 19,000 in attendance, plus the huge p-p-v audience?

“Oh, that was great: I mean it was a great show, the fights were really good and it was a wonderful crowd. The UFC is really growing. The biggest crowd I’ve refereed for was about 60,000 in Japan for a K-1 – that was enormous.”

How many fights have you had?

“I’ve actually had five fights, with a 3-2 record.”

When will you be fighting again?

“I do expect to be fighting in the middle of this year. I’m a referee first, but I do like to compete every now and then. What I am is a referee, and I don’t want people to confuse me for a fighter, but I think I’m young enough to fight, and I do enjoy it.”

What weight do you fight at?

“Well, I keep on wanting to get down to light heavyweight, and some of the guys I fight are serious competitors, but for a guy like me – I’m more of a novelty, so I’m better to fight maybe one of the older UFC legends. And I’d like to fight at 205, but I’ll probably end up fighting another small heavyweight.”

So you’ll probably fight some old guy like Randy Couture.

(Laughs) “Yeah, that would be really great.”

At UFC 48, you received a huge boo from the crowd for stopping the Mir vs. Sylvia fight. Even the commentators seemed critical of your decision. Then when the video replay came on, the united boo changed to a unanimous ‘Ooooh’. Was that very satisfying for you?

“It was, because in my mind I knew that I’d made the right decision… Of course you hope that the camera catches it and replays it, but you can’t depend on that. I think my vindication would have been some thirteen-year-old kid on the internet who would have done some research and found out at the hospital that Tim’s arm was broken. That would have been my vindication – some thread on the internet.

“But what ended up happening was they showed it right there. I was already decided, because of the reaction of the crowd and the people around the ring, that I probably wouldn’t be back in the UFC. When they showed the replay it was satisfying.”

I imagine then it would have helped your career and shown how solid you are as a referee.

“Yes. And I got a lot of respect after that. People really took notice and said. ‘He knows what he’s doing and he’s not afraid to do what he thinks is right.’”

Herb Dean at Martin vs. Rivera

Did you think it was a case of ‘here we go again’ at UFC 61 with Ken Shamrock vs. Tito Ortiz?

“Well, it was a lot different: for Tito and Ken you had a different audience. You had guys who were brought into the audience by the TUF show, so there was more of a mainstream audience who hadn’t watched as many MMA matches, at the time, as those who watched the Mir vs. Sylvia match. It was a totally different crowd. And so a lot of people wanted to see the Ortiz vs. Shamrock fight go on.

“Of course, I wanted to see that happen too. But I still think I did the right thing, whether he was conscious or not. I can’t make my decision based on empathy or know what the fighter is going to do: I don’t know what he’s going to do. A blow that would devastate me, somebody else would shrug off. Or a blow that I would laugh off might put somebody unconscious for a long time.

“I have to base it on what the person does: If they sit there and take five elbows without any intelligible answer, I have to say that the reason why they are not responding is because they can’t answer. That’s what I made my decision on.

“I’ve looked at it again and again, because I’m always trying to do things better. But even looking at it and trying to figure out how I would do things differently next time, I still come up with the same conclusion: I would still stop the fight.”

The result of the rematch was basically the same, wasn’t it?

“Yeah, it was the same. And like, how many elbows are too many?”

And Tito’s elbows aren’t sissy blows, are they?

“Those were very hard on. And Ken didn’t do anything that I thought was a defense. People talk about his having underhooks, but I didn’t see underhooks even when I watched the replays. All I saw was his moving away from the elbows as he was lying on his side, but Ken wasn’t trying to pull Tito in so he could take some force off the elbows or anything.”

As you said, it was a less experienced audience, and many of them probably haven’t ever copped a full-on elbow.

“Maybe they haven’t or maybe they have – maybe they don’t know how it feels. The bottom line is, they might think they could take them, but it’s not about whether you can take them, but what you do. That’s the only way that I can know that you’re okay, that you can continue to fight.”

You’ve also refereed IFL bouts. Is that a regular appointment for you?

“I’m not sure… I might referee for them again. I like the IFL… I like the no-elbows rule. I mean I like the elbows, but it’s not that I like one rule better - it’s just a different flavor. The fact that there are no elbows in the IFL makes more room for an active fight: When a guy goes to ground, you can’t get in close and open him up. You have to make some room and that opens it up for submissions, with submissions happening from the bottom like in the old days.”

What is your involvement in King of the Cage?

“That’s my first show: That’s where I first started refereeing, so I’m really involved heavily there. The first show was at Soboba Casino, but they do shows all over the world.”

What would be your most amusing experience as a referee?

“Oh, man, that’s a hard one. I won’t name the fighters, but I stopped one fight and the guy who lost said, ‘I’m going to have to get better seats because I can’t see the punches from out there.’ He was pretty confused, and guys say the funniest things when they wake up.

“But what cracked me up was when I asked Tim Sylvia (Sylvia vs. Mir fight) if he knew his arm was broken. And he said, ‘Oh yeah, I knew my arm was broken.’ I then asked him what his plan was, and he said he was going to knock him out with his other arm.”

Your website is under construction.

“Yeah, it’s been under construction for a while, hasn’t it? I need to construct it.”

When’s that going to happen?

“It will probably be up and running around the end of April.”

Herb, is there anything you’d like to add?

“What do I want to say? Well I just want to mention that I love this sport, and I’m so happy that it’s finally getting towards its rightful spot as the best sport on Earth. And I feel blessed every day that I get to be a part of it.”